CORINNE RUSSELL: Now we will hear from representative from some of our partner organizations. First, Gail Hutchings with the National Association of State Directors of Mental Health Agencies. GAIL HUTCHINGS: Thank you. I bring you greetings and the commitment of the States' Mental Health Commissioner throughout the 55 states and territories to the partnership. I also come to you as a family member of a child with special needs and I appreciate the opportunity to join in this partnership. We know that outcomes for children with disabilities are seriously needing more attention in this country. We know there's problems with graduation and employment rates and we're determined to improve those. Please avail yourself of some of the technical assistance available on this project. It's excellent and they're awaiting your calls. Thank you.

CORINNE RUSSELL: And now we have Beth Bader from the American Federation of Teachers. I want to ask everyone who stands to please give the microphone a second to get to you. Go right ahead.

BETH BADER: Hi. I appreciate the opportunity to speak today on behalf of the AFT. Members the American Federation of Teachers provide daily services to millions of student with disabilities. Our national organization has also been aggressive in disseminating many research based and demonstrated practices identified by the Office of Special Ed Programs and other agencies through the IDEA. These practices improve instruction and support for disabled students. We are excited to be part of the OSEP funded service providers partnership and look forward to working with OSEP and our partners to assist our members in providing access to the general curriculum, helping students to participate in state and local testing, helping all students, disabled and non-disabled, to meet high standards of achievement and conduct in classroom and non-classroom areas, providing early reading and behavior intervention to struggling students, and overall realizing improved outcomes for all students with disability. Thank you.

CORINNE RUSSELL: Thank you, Beth. And now I'd like to introduce Claudia Grigosesca of the Families and Advocates Partnership for Education.

CLAUDIA GRIGOSESCA: Good afternoon. My name is Claudia Grigosesca. I'm here presenting the Families and Advocates Partnership for Education at Pacer Center which is one of the four funded Partnership Projects. As a parent advocate, I understand the importance having good information on IDEA and its regulations that are easy to understand and available to all parents. I'm very pleased that the regulations require that an evaluation for a child be provided in his or her native language. I'm also impressed that highly mobile children, such as those who are homeless or migrant families, are specifically included under state child find requirements. I'm a member of ASPIDA, an organization for Hispanic/Latino parents. We are part of the National Coalition for Parent Involvement in Education, NC-Pi, a core partner with the Families and Advocates Partnership for Education. I am honored to be here and excited about this partnership that will help other parents to better understand the regulation IDEA.

CORINNE RUSSELL: Thank you, Claudia. Well, now it's time for us to hear from you. As I mentioned earlier. We can take questions that you phone in to 1-800-664-4470. We can also take questions sent by e-mail to PMP at nasdse.org, and we can take questions on our TDD line at 1-800-400-6010. I want to tell everybody that Rob Horner is on the line, on the telephone line, joining us to answer any questions on discipline. And I think we're going to start with a question from the audience. Everybody raise your hand if your name's called to give the microphone a second to find you. Jay McIntyre of the Council for Exceptional Children, one of the ILIAD partnerships. What's your question, Jay?

JAY McINTYRE: Thank you for the regulations. We're very pleased that they came out. They're going to be very helpful. School administrators work very, very hard to help all students in their schools to achieve to high standards. And I'm wondering if you could just share with us some key ways that school administrators can contribute to positive outcomes for students with disabilities?

JUDITH HEUMANN: I believe it was Rob who said that leadership is really key to what's going on in a school and within a school district. And I think Tom and I can both speak to the fact that having worked in a school myself and been under leadership of a strong principal and having visited many schools around the country, a good administrator can make or break what's going to go on in schools. So I think a good administrator really needs to be knowledgeable about the provisions in the statute and the regulations, needs to really be able to work effectively on helping to assure that teachers are going to be getting the kinds of support that they need in order to be able to do what the statute is intended to do, which is to help disabled children learn to higher standards.

There's going to need to be work which is done in the development of the IEP on issues around curricula because, in too many cases, the curricula hasn't been something that's been focused on. I think that although the percentage of children who have discipline problems with disabilities is small, I think it is really critical for the administrator to understand the specifics of the statute and the regulations, but also to do what we've been talking about -- really look at whole school reforms within their district, and to try to make sure that they are really focusing on changes that improve teaching and learning for all children within the schools. And I think an open atmosphere where parents, teachers, children and administrators are speaking on a regular basis to really evaluate the types of improvements that are occurring and the ongoing changes that schools need to make are critical in the successor IDEA.

CORINNE RUSSELL: Patty Smith. And if you would please stand up so we can get a better shot of you there. Patty Smith is with the National Internet Network on Disabilities.

PATTY SMITH: Well first of all, I want to complement you and all the departments on getting the regs out the way they are. And I think the accessibility that you're lending for people like the these teleconferences. I talked to people before I came over today that were going to tune in on their computer and that type of thing, and I think that's really, really great.

My question that I want to talk about was the issue of parent training and counseling. And the word counseling has never been, I don't think, has been paid attention to that much on behalf of parents as they have been given information and training. And I'd like for you to address that word. And I also am wondering, through IDEA '97 we have expanded, there is so much more happening, and so much more to be done for each person in the partnership for the students, and those being their parents also. I'm wondering if you envision an expansion of what needs to be done with the parent training centers or other entities that will be helping parents?

JUDITH HEUMANN: Let me answer the first question. I think one of the wonderful things that's going on school around the United States is how we're seeing a greater role in the involvement of parents. And so, when we look at this issue of parent training and counseling, one of the ways I look at it is really an ability for the schools to work effectively with the parent to really get a better understanding of what kinds of assistance the parent needs in order to be more involved in improving teaching, learning and results for the child.

It may mean that a parent is informed of parent training programs that exist in the communities, or other parent organizations that may be out there, or you may have a parent who, in fact, has a deaf child and is needing to learn sign language, and to be able to help that parent identify a program within the community that the parent could go to in order to be able to learn sign language, or just basic opportunities that are out there to help a parent learn about curricula, or any one of a number of questions.

The department, I think as you know, in the President's budget this year and last year, has continued to focus on increasing the funding base for the parent training programs. We believe that they're really critically important. And in budget for 2000, the President has an increase, or requested an increase of $4 million. This $4 million increase, if we're successful, will give us a total of $22 million for the parent training programs. It will enable us to add a number of new centers and expand the amount of basic support for some of the existing centers.

We believe very much that the parent training program has really afforded parents to have a voice to be able to gain that voice for, I think, some very critical reasons. And most importantly, I believe to allow parents to recognize that their children can learn and that going to school, being successful in school, staying in school will result in those kids graduating from school and either moving into employment or higher education or both.

CORINNE RUSSELL: We have a caller now from Virginia. Caller, do you have a question? I'm sorry. We have a question from Minnesota, please. Minnesota, do you have a question?

MAN: Hello.

CORINNE RUSSELL: Yes. Please go ahead with your question.

MAN: Okay. I would like to know, with regard to a manifestation determination meeting, who are the required participants, and if you could give some guidelines on the best way to conduct the manifestation determination meeting?

THOMAS HEHIR: For the manifestation determination when it's necessary under the law, the IEP team members should all be part of that. And essentially what is involved in a manifestation determination -- and this came out of a Supreme Court decision and it's the way people should think about this -- is that behavior being a manifestation of a disability should arise out of the disability. It should be something that is closely connected with the disability. And this needs to be done on an individual basis by the people who are most knowledgeable about the child -- the people working with the child, the child's parents -- to determine if the behavior involved is arising out of the child's disability.

CORINNE RUSSELL: We also have caller from Virginia. Are you on the line?

WOMAN: Yes.

CORINNE RUSSELL: Tell us your question.

WOMAN: I have two questions. One was if they're going to be providing further guidance regarding the discipline provisions and sections in the regulations. I've been trying to map it out and it's very confusing because there is information pertaining to the disciplinary procedures throughout the regs and I've found it to be very confusing. In addition, I wanted to know if anyone could tell me what the legal standard beyond a preponderance of the evidence means and how it is applied practically?

THOMAS HEHIR: As far as the discipline's visions are concerned, they are complex. We're not denying that. But I think one of the things that's important in looking at these provisions is recognizing, number one, on the decision to remove a child long term, in other words to change a child's placement, if the school district and the parents are in agreement, these provisions are irrelevant. And that's what happens in most of these instances. When a child has had a significant incident in school where parents in school districts are concerned, and usually parents are just as concerned as school districts, and they agree on a change in placement, these things are not relevant. On the rare event where one would have to determine, based on the preponderance of evidence, when a particular behavior is involved, it's basically a legal standard which is one that means that if a school district is seeking to remove a child that they need to have very clear documentation that that's justified in those instances. It is, by law, a high standard.

JUDITH HEUMANN: Are you a teacher or an administrator, or are you still on the line? They're gone. Well, may I also suggest that we've been giving you information thus far on the Partnership Projects that we have. And if you're a teacher, an administrator, a parent, someone involved in policy, look in your materials or come onto the Web site. A discipline is one of the areas that the partnership will be able to give you additional assistance on, and we will be continuing to come out with more information.

I also suggest that if you look at the regulation, in the preamble, we have seven questions, and those seven questions give good examples and responses that may help allow you to focus and not have to look through different questions of the regulations to get a clear understanding of the disciplines revision.

CORINNE RUSSELL: And Rob Horner is joining us via telephone. Rob, do you have something to add?

ROBERT HORNER: Yes. Can you hear me?

CORINNE RUSSELL: Yes.

ROBERT HORNER: I think the thing that is most exciting for us is that the regulations are not just being set up as a way to define what rules are for identifying kids who are having troubles. But the regulations are being attached to programs that are really being designed to helped schools respond to this type of problem. Schools are very challenged by the systems and the behaviors of kids who are outside of discipline standards. Part of what OSERS and OSEP are doing is they are not simply stating regulations, but they're also setting up technical assistance and research arms that should be a direct help to families, to administrators, and to teachers. I think one of the exciting things about the current regulations is that there really is a network of technical assistance that will be available. The center that George Sugai and I have is one example, but there are many projects within OSEP that are looking, not just at how to decrease problems related to discipline, but actually make schools much more productive environments that prevent discipline problems.

CORINNE RUSSELL: Thank you, Rob. We have a question from the audience. Trina Osher, please, with the Federation of Families for Children's Mental Health.

TRINA OSHER: Thank you. Thank you very much for the regulations Judy and Tom, and also thank you very much for the clear commitment that both of you have made to including families in the education process of their children. I'd like to push you a little further on that and ask you if you could give families and parents one practical nugget of advice about how to make this law work for their children, what would it be?

THOMAS HEHIR: Judy and I often have to say "nugget." (Laughter) We've been hanging around for a while together.

JUDITH HEUMANN: It's actually not, I think, easy to give one practical nugget, but I think for me, one is to believe in yourself and believe in your child, and to do as much as you can to really get an understanding of the kinds of supports and accommodations that your child may need in school, so that as your child moves through, you can be that bearer of information and be seen as a welcome resource in the classroom.

I also think that because of the many changes that are going on in schools today, to the extent that parents can also keep on top of the reforms that are going on in schools -- join a PTA, join a parent training program -- participate in the changes that are going on in the schools, because if you're an equal participant in the school, then people don't look at your child as something extra, not a part of the school. So, I think being knowledgeable, being seen as a resource, and being seen as committed to the activities going on in the school can really be very helpful.

THOMAS HEHIR: My nugget is a little different. I would say, and maybe I'm sounding a bit like an educator, but I think that's what I am, I think paying close attention to the IEP and the IEP process is critically important for all parents with kids with disabilities. There's been some significant strengthening of the IEP that went on in this re-authorization. And one of the things that I think is very important is that there's very clear language about what people should be doing when they're meeting, determining the education of a child. For the parents that you work with and that you are, as well, parents of kids who have mental health needs, the behavioral issue should be addressed up front. We need to make sure that kids who have mental health needs, some of those kids have behavior problems in school, that those things are addressed up front in the IEP, that we look to make sure that children learn behaviors in school. You know, discipline should be about teaching kids how to live by rules which every child needs to learn, that that be done up front.

I think some of the questions we get a lot of has to do with when things have really gone bad as far as the education of children. How can we get this kid removed? Whereas I think if educators and parents are on the same page, and this has to do with Patty's question about parent counseling as well, when educators and parents are on the same page, things work better for kids.

CORINNE RUSSELL: Thank you. We now have a question that came via fax. It's actually a double question here: "Do students need a reevaluation if they graduate with a certificate of attendance before they age-out, you indicate that evaluation does not occur for those who receive regular education diploma or age-out. What about those who choose to graduate with certificates prior to age 21?"

THOMAS HEHIR: I think there's a couple of things that people need to look at more broadly as far as this question is concerned. One is the importance of transition planning, that the law makes it clear that transition planning is extremely important, and the '97 amendments begin that process at 14. We certainly hope that at 14, no later than 14, is the legal requirement, that at that time people are planning up front how this child is going to have a successful high school experience that leads to a diploma. That's the goal here.

There is also, I think, an important point here that relates to reevaluations. Reevaluations are required every three years. There's been a change in the law as it relates to not needing to do a constant re-establishment of eligibility -- in other words, determining whether the child is still disabled if the parent and the school district agree that that doesn't need to be done again -- so that there would be, at some point, in the child's high school career, at least one reevaluation that would occur. An important point here is noticed though, is both transitioned and noticed, that parents know that when a child leaves school with something other than a regular education diploma, that that child continues to be eligible for services under IDEA. And parents need to know that and students need to know that because oftentimes students at this age need to be taking responsibility for their own education and are emancipated adults. They are legal adults and they need to have those notice requirements as well.

JUDITH HEUMANN: I think because of the fact that students are now more involved in the process, part of the question the questioner asked was, "What happens if a student decides that they want to leave and they're not graduating with a regular diploma?" Obviously, I think, as Tom was saying, having a real meaningful discussion about what it means to be leaving a school without a regular diploma is something that really should be going on during the discussion through high school because I think the implications are much more severe students who don't have appropriate diplomas.

But on the other hand, some students may want to leave. It is important, I think, for students to understand one of the reasons why we are OSERS, and that is that there's another program called the Rehabilitation of Services Administration. Some students with disabilities may in fact be eligible to receive services from the Rehabilitation Services Administration. There are rehab programs within every state. We are encouraging that at the IEP meetings in high school that a rehab counselor certainly participate in some of those meetings to inform the student and the family about what rehab is all about and whether they would be likely to meet eligibility criteria.

There are some high schools now that are doing work with students in community colleges and other colleges. I just visited one recently where students who are 18 years old and are not yet completed with their studies are not having to stay on the high school campus, but rather are going to a more age-appropriate setting, and we're seeing more of those programs also. So, there are other options that we could be encouraging schools to be developing to allow students who feel that it's not appropriate any longer to be staying in a high school, but who, in fact, recognize that they could be benefitting from more educational services until they age-out.

CORINNE RUSSELL: We have a question now from Florida via telephone. Florida are you there?

WOMAN: I'm here.

CORINNE RUSSELL: Tell us your question.

WOMAN: Hello. Welcome. Hello. Are you there?

CORINNE RUSSELL: Yes, we're here.

WOMAN: Yes. Let me send greetings from the Sunshine State, and then let me tell you that I'm extremely ecstatic about this networking and technical assistance project. I think it's very important, since my professional career spans 29 years, and I was here when 94142 started, and this was just a gleam and a dream, and now it looks like it's going to be come a reality. So, I'm terribly excited and delighted to have an opport-- (Lost transmission)

LARRY KOLMEIR: Hello. I guess California cut off Florida. Good afternoon. My name is Larry Kolmeir. I'm the Chair of the Advisory Commission on Special Education here in California.

JUDITH HEUMANN: Hi, Jerry, how you doing?

LARRY KOLMEIR: Great and Alice says hello as well.

JUDITH HEUMANN: Tell her hi.

LARRY KOLMEIR: Great. We have made this a part of our agenda and have downlinked this to the entire commission. And thank you for that. I have a couple of questions. In light of the fact that current funding and legislation tend to create a disincentive to identify children with invisible disabilities, i.e. learning disability, ADHD. Number one, how does IDEA '97 attempt to identify students in grades K to one, first grade, who are at risk for reading problems before they fail and progress into special education, and secondly, and probably more importantly as it faces California, we receive $400 million in Part B dollars each year. In addition, in order to support current programs, we have $2 billion -- that's with a B -- from the state and $1.2 billion which are local contributions from school districts. With the added requirements for IDEA '97, what can you offer us as any hope for the full funding of IDEA or the 40% mandate?

JUDITH HEUMANN: Let me start with the last part first. I think, as you may know, IDEA has received in the last three years an 85% increase for the basic state grant program. And in the proposal that was submitted by the President, we in fact focused our dollars really on your first question, which is as it pertains to early intervention. We think that it's really critically important that we increase the funding in the basic program between birth to three and three to five. And that we also put more emphasis on the issue around reading and behavioral intervention. So, you see that in the budget there is a $50 million proposal which enable school districts to apply for funding to be able to bring professionals into the classrooms to work with children between the ages of five and nine and provide more aggressive services for kids who either have reading difficulties or children who are having behavioral problems.

We also, in the budget, put a focus in the area of state improvement grants. I think one thing that was very clear for us, as we were working on our budget proposal this year, is that we see it to be very important to put more money in the discretionary programs because the discretionary programs are clearly a way where we can, I believe, provide more direct assistance to teachers, administrators, parents and students in areas that they're identifying as critically important.

The Secretary, at his testimony last week at the House Appropriations, said that if the caps, you know, we've been living -- one of the reasons people are so happy with what's going on in the United States is that we have balanced our budget, and we have not been just allowing money to be spent wildly and inappropriately. That's allowing the economy to get better and people are liking that. We developed our budget living with those caps. What the Secretary said last week was that if those caps were to be removed, then there would be a priority on putting additional money into the Part B program.

But I do think that even if we were to get more money in Part B, $500 million let's say, California and other states need to do a really good job of making sure that you are spending the dollars, both federal, state, and local dollars wisely. And California, I believe, is a good example of a state that has really, by focusing on early intervention -- some of you may not know, California is really focused on K through three, reducing class size, improving teachers in the classroom, catching kids who are having problems earlier on so they don't necessarily have to go to special ed services -- and I think that's been very helpful. That will also reduce the amount of money that has to be spent on special ed if you provide services up front and deter children who otherwise would additional services from needing those.

CORINNE RUSSELL: We cut off Florida by accident before, and we'd like to go back to you now. Tell us your question again, please. Are you there, Florida? Florida, are you there?

WOMAN: Hello. Yes. Now, I've been here all along, but now I'm there. Okay. I have one quick question and that is that we in Florida realize that we are definitely a forward-moving state. We also appreciate that California is always on the brink. And we are right there with them, maybe a tad behind, but for them to cut us off in the middle was just uncalled for. (Laughter) I don't know where I was, but let me just get to the quick. And that is that the networking systems for strengthening the partnership between schools and parents is where it's at. There's no question about that.

There's also no question there's a great deal of talk about parents learning more and getting help and getting all of this in-service, but there is another side to that coin, and that side of the coin is the one that I would like you to address, and that is what do we have in the regs, in the technical assistance projects, in all of this dissemination, that will literally help administrators open theirs ears and learn more about what the parents' concerns are? Because every time you say to a parent group that is forward-moving, as in the state of California and Florida, "Well, we're get you more in-service." They say, "Hey, hey. We don't need anymore in-service.

We need a way to communicate with administrators, with middle and upper management in our schools so that we can actually engage in a partnership." So that's what I know about.

THOMAS HEHIR: Well, I think that's an excellent question because we have -- one of the things that's an advantage of sitting in the seat that I sit in is that I deal with all the groups. I have to deal with all the groups because of the nature of my job. And I have been an administrator most of my career. And there is a critical need for parents and administrators to have honest dialogue because parents and administrators almost always want the same thing, which is improved educational results.

I think that in the area of special ed, I think in the past often times special ed has been removed, that it's been the special ed department's responsibility and there hasn't been sufficient dialogue with general educators. One of the reasons we did the Partnership Grants the way we did, which was to bring associations together that represent administrators, parents, teachers, and other service providers, is that we hope over the next four years that we will be sponsoring all kinds of activities that get parents and administrators closer together.

There is another aspect of this that I think is important which Judy mentioned before and I'd like to say that a number of states have already gotten these, is the State Improvement Grants. These grants are designed to get at the state level -- everything shouldn't be coming from Washington -- at the state level getting teachers, administrators, and parents, and institutions of higher education because they're important players here, institutions of higher education and parents all together to look at what's happening in an individual state as it relates to educational results for kids with disabilities, and what needs to be done to move the ball down the field. And these grants require that these partnerships be developed at the state level as well so that we have better results for kids with disabilities. Seventy-five percent of the money in these grants must be used for personnel preparation so that there are resources out there that can be used to bring parents and administrators, and I would also add teachers and higher ed folks, together -- as they need to be.

JUDITH HEUMANN: I'd like to add one additional thing. As an administrator -- and only you can make this determination yourself -- really needs to learn more about the needs of the children in your district or in your school. I think it would be very important to try to get the kind of specific information that you need so that you've got more confidence in being able to serve the diverse population for children in schools.

One of the reasons why we felt so strongly about the Partnership Grants is because it really they really can help develop mentorships between the various constituencies that are involved with these projects. So, I think administrators being able to reach out to other administrators who may have had more experience with working with different populations of children will be very helpful in giving some real either across the computer, over the phone, or in the classroom experience.

WOMAN: Am I still on? Let me ask one other question. Does the Partnership Grant that we're talking about that can do what needs to be done need to be initiated through the school district?

JUDITH HEUMANN: No. The Partnership Grants really enable people to self-initiate. There'll be formal projects that have been developed between various organizations where they're going to be specific trainings that are going to go on. But, for example, if you're an administrator, you would be going through the partnership that's sponsored by NASDE. They've got a very active bulletin board that's set up. They've got all kinds of information that you'd be able to come in and get, books to read, other people to talk to. These are new. This is the first six months that these grants are up, but they're a five-year commitment. And so, I really think that what we're going to see over the course of the five years is the ability for the group that you talked about earlier -- parents, administrators, teachers, etc. -- to learn more about each other's areas of concern and to be able to work in a more collaborative way together on addressing these issues.

CORINNE RUSSELL: Thank you. We have a question from our audience. Will Toby Brick raise your hand, or stand up?

TOBY BRICK: My question is in reference to the new changes in IDEA in the regs, IDEA '97. And if a child with a disability needs related services, but is not in special education, then they're not entitled to benefits under IDEA. So, I'm not sure if I understand that. Could you explain that a little bit in more detail for me, please?

THOMAS HEHIR: Yes, I can. This will vary a bit from state to state. A state can define related services as special education, and therefore a child who may only need a related service in that state would be able to receive that service. But IDEA requires that a child, generally speaking, needs special education and related services. So, unless the state has defined related services specifically as special education, you're right. However, those children can still get related services under Section 504 of the Rehab Act, which would enable them to get related services, if that's all that they need.

CORINNE RUSSELL: Thank you very much. We have a question submitted by a parent from Silver Spring: "My child will be going to high school in a few years. Is there anything in IDEA '97 that will help him prepare for college?"

JUDITH HEUMANN: A lot. (Laughs)

THOMAS HEHIR: We got something for everyone, right? (Laughs)

JUDITH HEUMANN: We'll just give a little nutshell of this, but basically speaking, we really strengthen the transition services under IDEA so that now, by the time the child is 14 years old, discussions should be occurring during the development of the IEP -- Tom was talking about this earlier -- which says, "Okay, I'm a freshman in high school now. I'm going to be leaving school in about four years. What am I interested in doing? Do I want to go to college? Am I going to go out and get a job straight up? What areas am I interested in? Am I interested in science? Am I interested in gardening? Am I interested in whatever? What kinds of courses should I be looking at taking while I'm in school? What kind of after-school program? Should I be looking at taking advanced placement courses? What should I be looking at doing as far as my independent living skills are concerned? Do I need to my strengthen my independent living skills?"

So I think what we're looking at in the transition period is not only changes in the statute regarding transition starting at 14, the discussions, at 16 having to integrate that into the IEP specifically, but also really using it as an opportunity to begin to have what you could call grown-up conversations and to allow the child really to be participating more in the development of their IEP. This may be a good time, for example, for a disabled individual to learn about independent living centers that exist in their community. They may, in fact, want to start going there and meeting some adults who have disabilities if they don't already know some. They may even want to invite an adult with a disability to come to an IEP meeting with them and their family in order to be able to have some discussion.

But what we're hoping with the strengthening of the transition provision is that we have fewer examples of students leaving school without any thought about what they would like to do when they get out of school with limited experience in school-to-work related activities, which more and more non-disabled students are getting, and really having to start spending time when they're 18, 19 or 20, thinking about issues that would have much better for them to start thinking about at 14.

THOMAS HEHIR: There's another thing I would like to add to what Judy said, which I don't know to the degree which people know this, but the '97 amendments require states to establish performance goals for their special education program that at minimum look at how well children are doing in the general ed curriculum. I know I said "general ed curriculum" about 20 times today, but we think this is critically important. If you talk about high school, what goes before high school is just as important as well. You have to build and make sure that kids are learning in school what other kids are learning. And people are held accountable for that, that they assessed it. And so that's critically important, because what we find with many kids at the high school level is that they are not well prepared and that they haven't learned in school what other kids have learned.

Secondly, we have a big dropout rate with kids with disabilities. It's double that for non-disabled kids. And the IDEA '97 amendments require that states look at their dropout rates as one of their performance goals. We need to be reducing those dropout rates. Again, I think that that is directly related to making sure kids are successful ultimately in high school and life.

CORINNE RUSSELL: We also have a question submitted from a teacher from Sioux Falls, South Dakota: "Is there anything in the new IDEA '97 or its regulations that could allow schools to work earlier with children with reading and behavior problems?"

JUDITH HEUMANN: One of the changes that we made was in the definition of "developmentally delayed" which now covers children three to nine. So if a state decides that it wants to utilize the expanded definition of developmentally delayed, it would be the state that would define the definition that they're going to operate under. The local education agency is not required to utilize that definition. But if they want to, in fact, expand their developmental delay population until the age of nine, they would have to use the state's definition.

We think this is a very important new position because some people are interested in moving away from just using labels -- you know, we've got 13 categories under IDEA -- and utilizing the definition of "developmentally delayed" can allow you to get services focused on particular functional needs those children may have without necessarily giving a child a label from one of those categories. Although a child can certainly, for example, a child who's deaf, certainly would be able to have that category regarding their disability.

I think also we've been discussing throughout the course of this session today that we really do want to focus on identifying children who are having reading difficulties early on, some of whom, in fact, may begin to get special ed services under the "developmentally delayed" definition. But also I would really like to encourage people to work within their local school districts, many of whom are now developing teams that are beginning to identify children in pre-school and kindergarten who are having difficulty learning to read, or who may be having behavioral problems, who may, in fact, not yet be receiving special ed services. Sometimes intensive services coming in even before a child is receiving special ed services can prevent the child from needing special ed services. So, there are a variety of mechanisms that are out there, some of which are afforded under the IDEA and some of which are just supported because of good practices at local schools.

THOMAS HEHIR: One other provision that I think is important to this, which is in the '97 amendments, and that is that special education teachers who are increasingly working in general education classrooms, who are funded under federal money, can work with both disabled and non-disabled kids. And so, if there is a special education teacher who is working in a first grade classroom or a second grade classroom, they can also work with kids who the teachers, and teachers always know this, they always know the kids who are in significant trouble.

And what we do in special ed, which I think is problematic, is we often let these kids fail and fail and fail before we do anything. Teachers don't like that, parents don't like that, and it makes no sense. It won't produce good educational results. And so, if these teachers are working in regular classrooms more and more, they can work both with kids with disabilities and other kids who may need their help. So, I think that that's another provision in the law that I think is critically important for this issue.

JUDITH HEUMANN: I think also we've talked a lot about the professional development language in the IDEA both for the state improvement grants, the CFPB dollars, and dollars that local school districts can use. The training doesn't have to go just to special ed teachers. Non-special ed (laughs) or teachers who teach regular ed can also benefit from these dollars with the expectation that having a child with a disability in a classroom is becoming less and less of a foreign experience.

I guess I also want to say that when I talk to teachers who are coming out of school, just graduating from school, I still hear too frequently that they feel that their professors are not really up to date with the kinds of children that are appearing in their classes. And I do think it is important for deans of schools to really kind of "get with it," so to speak, to make sure that there are not faculty that are giving students information like, "Don't worry. You really don't need to understand these issues. You're not going to have those kids in your classroom." That's kind of an old way of thinking, and teachers learn very quickly that that professor didn't really know what he or she was talking about.

CORINNE RUSSELL: We're getting a number of questions phoned in and faxed in from folks who are too shy to ask the questions themselves. Here's one from a teacher in South Carolina: "Can you explain what is meant by positive behavioral interventions and supports and functional assessment?"

ROBERT HORNER: Okay, I'd like to do that. Let me start by following up on what Tom and Judy were saying to the last question. I think the issue of early intervention is often missed when people talk about discipline and behavior disorders. In fact, some of the exciting advances in the field of behavioral support really focus on the need to identify and respond to kids who have problem behavior patterns very early. In fact, one of the messages that Hill Walker's research has really demonstrated to us is if we can identify and support a child before they leave grade three, the trajectory of their problem behavior patterns is much, much less severe than if we wait until that kid is in seventh grade, eighth grade, ninth grade, and we try and come in with heavy-duty behavioral interventions. So, I think one of the important messages about early intervention is that early intervention not only is important for educational development, but early intervention is a real key to successful behavioral support in schools.

Related to that, and one of the things that is a bridge to the second question, is that teaching is seldom really recognized as being a key element of positive behavioral support. When you identify children who have deviant behavior patterns, dangerous behavior patterns, early, the single most powerful strategy for changing those patterns involves delivering instruction on alternative and appropriate communication and social behaviors. And one of the exciting features about positive behavioral support really is this emphasis on teaching. If you were to break out and say, "What is positive behavioral support?" I would say technically we can give you lots of theory and procedures, but I would focus on four major elements that make positive behavioral support a real exciting feature for IDEA.

First is its behavioral intervention that emphasizes prevention. We're not just talking about, as Tom indicated, waiting until a kid fails. We're talking about positive behavioral support that is school-wide rather than just individual kid focused. So, one of the key features of positive behavioral support in schools is attention to behavioral issues in a preventative manner.

Second is really emphasizing that if you're going to change the way that kids behave, you aren't going to do that simply by using the old tools of punishment, suspension, and expulsion. Too often we have limited the choice of the teachers and the administrators have had in their response to kids with problem behaviors. One of the characteristics of positive behavioral support is adding the resources and adding the technology to really teach appropriate ways to behave. Schools need to teach behaviors in addition to teaching academics.

A third part is really a shift from thinking about behavior support as something that only changes problem behaviors. What we've learned from over the past ten years is that successful behavioral interventions focus not just on changing behaviors we don't like, but on changing a whole host of behaviors that we do like. We've got to create opportunities for successful activities. We've got to build the skills that are going to lead to going to high school, going to college, and etc. We've got to invest educationally in the behavior of children as well as focusing on their academics.

The fourth thing that distinguishes positive behavioral support is a recognition that is not just a sterol technology that is used the same way with everybody. Positive behavioral support has, as a key element, something that's called contextual fit, which means what a teacher does, what a family does, what a community does to assist a kid who has problem behaviors has to fit the values, the skills, and the resources of that family teacher or community. That's a big difference from what old-fashioned behavior management used to look like. And in that way, those four big features focus on prevention, focus on teaching, much greater expansion of the outcomes that we use for success, and ensuring that the things we do have good contextual fit. Those are really, in my mind, what characterize positive behavioral support.

CORINNE RUSSELL: Judy had something brief to add.

JUDITH HEUMANN: Just to say that it was a very good question. I think Rob's given us a very good answer. Also, it's important for people to recognize that there are changes in the statutes around the area of behavioral assessments and interventions which are important to focus on, mainly the child, at every IEP, the question should be asked, "Do we need to look at doing a behavioral assessment for a child?" If the answer is yes, then those discussions should begin. And I think looking at what Rob has just discussed in the development of a behavioral plan would be a critical way of focusing the discussion.

CORINNE RUSSELL: We have a caller from New Jersey on the line.

ROBERT HORNER: Actually, could I interrupt and follow up on that, because I think the issue of functional assessment is really important. Is that acceptable or do you want to go on?

CORINNE RUSSELL: No, that's fine. Go right ahead.

ROBERT HORNER: I think one of the things that's important is IDEA now tells us that we need to do functional behavioral assessments. It indicates when those need to occur. It is really important for administrators and educators to know that there are many different ways that they can do functional assessments. But the big messages are that: one, functional assessments should improve the effectiveness and the efficiency of behavioral intervention. That's the whole point. So the information created from the assessment should actually increase and improve the effectiveness and the efficiency with which behavioral interventions are done.

It's also important to note that regardless of how the assessment is done, all good functional assessments will: one, define the problem; two, they will identify the triggers or those things that set up problem behaviors; three, they will always come up with a hypothesis that says, "Why does she do that? What are the things that maintain that behavior?" A really exciting part is functional assessment takes problem behaviors out of the child and put them into the context. It says, "What is it about this context that's maintaining those problem behaviors?" And the fourth thing which is incredible important is that all good functional assessments will include direct observation data that support the verified hypotheses. If those are used, then the elements of IDEA are going to be very powerfully implemented in schools.

CORINNE RUSSELL: Thank you, Rob. We have a question now from New Jersey. Caller, are you there?

WOMAN: Yes, I am, thank you. Judy, I'd like you to know that in New Jersey we certainly are addressing teacher preparation programs, trying to get teachers to be more "with it," as you said. However, coming from a state that has done very poorly in areas related to inclusion and transition, what will OSERS be doing to ensure that state and local education agencies will implement the excellent ideas in IDEA '97?

JUDITH HEUMANN: Well, I think this is a very important question and certainly every place I go parents are asking me, "Okay, what are you going to do to really implement this new law and really make it work?" We have, since Tom and I have been in office, done a number of things to try to strengthen our monitoring. We've had two monitoring conferences in the last couple of years where we've brought together really a cross-section of people from the administrators to teachers to parents and advocates to really discuss what results do we want to see children achieving in school and what do we need to do to assure that our monitoring is really allowing us to measure whether or not the states are doing a good job, and if not, what are we going to do.

There were some changes that were made in the reauthorization as far as monitoring our concerns so that we have some more authority now, that we don't have to just withhold funding for a state that's really doing poorly, but we can withhold part of the funding. And that is, of course, something that's done in the last resort, but there are some states where we have been in repeatedly monitoring and providing technical assistance who are, in fact, being informed that they are close to the point of looking at serious possibilities of withholding of funds.

We are trying to do very aggressive and assertive technical assistance with states. We're trying to get states to avail themselves of all the resources and more that we've been discussing today. One issue that we think is really critically important is that states have a very effective mechanism so that they, in fact, can do good monitoring in the state; that they can identify problems that are occurring in school districts and that they have a responsibility to be aggressively working on providing technical assistance, and that they have a responsibility to be handling complaints that are being filed by the parents in a timely way. Some states are really moving in a very good direction and are doing better and better work.

I think you can get information on the states that we have been monitoring. New Jersey, you know, is one of the states that we have been in more frequently in the last couple of years, and have sent them of late a letter which is really pretty critical of what's going on in the state and holding them to a higher standard.

CORINNE RUSSELL: We have a question now that was faxed in from Steve McAllistrum: "I cannot find Appendix B in the regulations. Can you tell me where they are or if they're under a different name?" And this caller got the text of the regulations from the Federal Register online.

JUDITH HEUMANN: I'd be lying if I just picked up this card with the answer, but Joleta Reynolds handed it to me. (Laughter) If I knew the number without the book I'd be in big trouble. Appendix B begins on page 12481 of the March 12 Federal Register. It's located immediately after Appendix A. Appendix A has the questions and answers on the IEP and other topics.

CORINNE RUSSELL: We have a question in our audience. Eric Heckman. Eric is a student at Gallaudet. Could you stand up, please? Give our microphone just one second.

ERIC HECKMAN: How does IDEA impact students in colleges and federal government support and financial aid to students in colleges?

JUDITH HEUMANN: Actually, the IDEA does not cover students who are attending a university, but Gallaudet gets 80% of its funding from the federal government, so you're kind of in a unique situation. There are lots of other resources that disabled students who've been accepted into a college or university could be looking at. Department of Rehabilitation certainly is one source. But then looking at things like Pell grants and Hope scholarships and other federal grants or loan programs, you can come to the Web site for the Department of Ed which is www.ed.gov, and come into the Office of Higher Education, and that would give you additional information.

THOMAS HEHIR: IDEA does not cover the rules around the education of kids who have gone beyond high school, but we do have in IDEA important discretionary programs that have funded the sort of research investments that we have talked about today. It also allows us to find programs in colleges and universities, and we do fund programs in colleges and universities that are model demonstration programs that show how kids with disabilities can be included in university and college programs. We also, under IDEA, fund several regional programs for deaf students specifically, and we also have a clearinghouse called the Heath Clearinghouse, and I think it's probably in the package of information that's been provided to folks, which provides people with information around planning for colleges for young adults with disabilities. We've been very pleased over the past ten years or so, there's been a marked increase in the number of young adults with disabilities going on to colleges and universities. Increasingly, colleges and universities are greatly expanding their services to these kids and it's a great trend and we want to support that continuing to happen.

JUDITH HEUMANN: We also have numbers of basically grant programs for individuals who are interested in studying special education. So, funds for undergraduate, graduate, doctoral and post-doctoral work would be available to those schools that have successfully competed for those dollars. And we are really trying to diversify the population of individuals who are moving into the special ed profession and trying to get more disabled students and more individuals of color, and individuals of color who are disabled into the field.

CORINNE RUSSELL: We have a question that was e-mailed in: "How does IDEA '97 enforce the idea of needing to have high expectations for disabled children?"; "Are the local school systems held accountable if they have low expectations of LD children, especially LD children which are in middle or high schools? And what prevents LEA from passing these kids through the system and letting them graduate with late elementary to early middle school skills?

JUDITH HEUMANN: Well, I think we'll both get into answering this. This is a great question and it's also complicated because, certainly, statutorily and as far as the regulations are concerned, it would be inappropriate for schools to have low expectations for certain groups of kids. Whether they have a learning disability or cerebral palsy or autism or deafness, whatever the child's disability would be, the statute is very clear that we're supposed to have a high expectation for all children. We're supposed to focus on the development of individualized education program to really have a better understanding, as we've discussed earlier, about the kind of support that a disabled student will need, the kinds of accommodations that the student will need in order to be able to advance in the general curricula.

So those are kind of benchmarks that we're utilizing as we move forward with this. Parents and children are also going to have to be very knowledgeable and participatory in the process, so that if you believe that a school has low expectations for a child and that the IEP is not being developed appropriately, or was developed appropriately but isn't being implemented appropriately and is resulting in that child not being able to be successful in advancing in the curricula, then you may want to utilize one of the new provisions within the statute which is to ask for mediation. Say "Look, we need to sit down and discuss this again because I really don't believe that this IEP is really working the way it was intended to when we developed it."

I think, in some cases, it may mean that teachers or administrators don't really know the tools that are available to them in order to help the child advance as the child can. And that's why I think the ability to have meaningful technical assistance at the local school level, where special ed administrators and special ed teachers are really knowledgeable, and as we've been saying, are a part of the team of activities that are going on in the school. Again, the importance of, as a rule, special ed not being a place but special ed being a service. I think we see more and more that teachers -- we hear certain complaints from some special ed teachers which I think are very valid. As they're being expected to move more into the regular ed classroom, they too need to have more knowledge about the change in curricula which students are learning from in school so that they can be on top of what kinds of supports and adaptation need to be afforded a student. So, we've needing not only to raise the skills of the regular ed teachers, but also to raise the skills of the special ed teachers.

Now, we are requiring, as we said earlier, that students participate in the regular assessments at the state or local level that they're provided. If they're not provided at a state level and only provided at a local level, then the student would participate at the local level. And in the rare cases where a student couldn't participate in the regular assessment, by July of 2000 they would participate in an alternate assessment. The information gathered from the assessment must be a part of the information that is given at the state and local level. The ability to aggregate and disaggregate will be very important here, because this is where we'll be able to come in and determine are students with disabilities performing significantly poorer than non-disabled students? What kinds of interventions are we providing when we're seeing that occurring to help improve the results of children? Which we believe A) we will in some areas see kids performing more poorly because, in fact, there hasn't been an expectation for children to participate in the (inaudible) happen something that we've really necessarily been working on effectively with disabled students. And where that happens, it allows us to really look at what we have to do to get their skills up.

THOMAS HEHIR: I think one of the things that happens all too often with kids with learning disabilities -- and I taught kids with learning disabilities at the high school level a few years ago, and this is important in the '97 amendment -- is really pushing this issue of access to the curriculum. What happens too often with kids with learning disabilities, 80% of whom have significant problems with reading and language-oriented materials, is that too often people say, "Okay, if he can't read at the grade level so therefore he can't take physics," and the kids are left behind. When I taught kids -- again, it was quite a few years ago, back in the '70s -- who had learning disabilities, I felt it was my job. I actually felt my job was multi-faceted. One thing was to teach the kids how to read, because most of the kids I had couldn't read. But secondly, it was my job as a special education teacher to make sure that they had adaptations -- for instance, in math -- that enabled them to learn the same math that other kids were learning, but I took into account the fact they had very low reading levels which was the case with the kids I taught. They went up as they had me a little longer, but.

And that is, I think, a real important point in these '97 amendments. When we look at the research on kids with learning disabilities, lots of them are not in the same classes even as other kids, they're not learning the same thing, and that's one of the reasons these amendments are so strong on that issue. And IEP specifically must address the accommodations and supports they get in regular classrooms because a lot of these kids, if we look at the data, are integrated into the regular classrooms without accommodations and support and they fail. That needs to stop -- not the integration, the lack of modifications and support.

JUDITH HEUMANN: And IEP also needs to address the kinds of accommodations that the student will need if the state is requiring assessments at the state or local level. So the accommodations are both for the test that the student is taking on a regular basis and the kinds of accommodations that the student will need when they're taking a state or local assessment.

This issue is a very critical one. We're doing a lot of work on the issue of accommodation because we are pushing states to make sure that they are only offering, the tests that they're offering allows for the range of accommodations that students should have articulated in their IEP. We know this is not true in all states. We're doing a lot of work with states, and actually stay tuned; we're coming out with another letter on this issue very soon. (Laughter)

CORINNE RUSSELL: This question was phoned in from a parent from Mill Valley, California, and a brief answer, please: "Why is it important for my child to be involved in the school testing program? Won't it be too difficult for him?

JUDITH HEUMANN: I think, as a disabled person, it is critical that students be a part of the assessment process because we need to make students recognize and the system recognize that all kids have to be held to a higher standard, and that the failure to participate in assessments of some sort also gives a lower expectation to the child. The child needs to see that they're in a regular school, and a regular classroom in most cases, and high expectations; their need to be able to study higher, be able to articulate for themselves the kind of accommodations that they need in order to be successful. But trying to over-protect a child in no way prepares that child for adult living, and I really want to underscore that very strongly.

CORINNE RUSSELL: Well, thank you. We've had so many good questions, and unfortunately, we've run out of time for questions. We'd like to assure you, though, that all questions that we couldn't get to this afternoon will be logged and answered in our Future IDEAs At Work activities. This includes a soon-to-be-released technical assistance document.